I REALLY like MMP. But I think we are seeing a combination of things happening here that are going to push most of their titles out of reach of the average wargamer budget.
Clearly inflation is adding its issues 10%+ inflation, then supply of paper, and cardstock is allegedly an issue. US production is just more expensive and antiquated in its technology and labor costs model, I get that and happy to pay a small premium for US local printing….
But the big one is scale. Since the company relies on smaller print runs than say GMT their costs are notably higher. I suspect this is the reason for the staggering prices here.
S43: 
An interesting example would be to compare Salerno ’43 and Arracourt pictured above.
If you look at Arracourt on the left [1 ]and Salerno 43 [2] on the right they are comparable sets of components. MMP’s product has 1 extra counter sheet a black & white scenario booklet and some charts. S’43 has one counter sheet, their rulebook and scenarios all in one are full color and full color play aids. Very close in ‘scale & quality’.
The big difference as I see it assuming no one is just charging like a wounded bull is scale. At over 2k copies S’43 can be printed in China for much less and probably even much less if it was done in the USA. But MMP with its niche inside a niche customer base relies on almost the same 1.1k buyers to buy at least one of everything.
Which is a pity, because Arracourt is a fine example of MMP exploring better accessibility to the game series.
Full color rules.
larger counters
larger hexes
full ‘insiders ‘ guide
A really well done product, that should have sold 1.5-2.5k copies and that might have dropped the cost of production down 15-30%?
But for some reason it has not sold well enough to generate ‘real’ interest.
Then we have this guys: Bastogne. Which is why I’m writing this note. I nearly gagged on the entry fee. Its currently in the basket. I want to try the new improved GTS rules in a consumable format, especially given that I have played a tiny bit of and watched played Op Mercury, played the Brit beaches etc, and Im still not sure I ‘get’ the point of this system.
So I was hoping this two mapper [ & 1 double sided smaller map ]would be lynch pin that ‘sold’ me on the system.
But 120 preorder and $176 retail and $24 bucks to ship a 4LB game? What else can I compare this to?
How about Thin Red Line games. – 5 large thick paper maps[ plus a ‘strategic map’] 6 counter sheets, color chart booklets, a rulebook and a scenario book. In a BIG 3 inch box. That is a good comparision.
$179 dollars on a run that I am certain is under 1000 and made in Europe for goodness sake, the Unionized high taxed capital of the universe. – Side benefit there is I dont have to wait 2yrs for the pre order either.
The only reason I would STFU and just eat if was if someone told me that the GTS and BCS etc designers are getting a significantly bigger commission/royalty per unit. That would make me happy and maybe not choke so darn hard on prices from MMP.
What do y’all think?
They definitely do not produce in EU, actually is US side as stated many times.
Snappy salute !
Thin Red Line games do produce in the EU.
Kev, I 100% agree with you, and have been thinking the same for some time. I’m an OCS, GTS (and now BCS) fanboy so I will probably continue to blindly buy whatever they put out in those systems regardless, but the price/value ratio is surly getting too high for most gamers and frankly I am giving second thought to GTS Bastogne, particularly when there are so many game publishers out there now producing great product at lower cost and competing for my gaming $$. I also don’t completely buy the argument that produced in the USA + small print runs = massively higher costs to this degree (although yeah, I get that it will be somewhat more expensive) That being said, I also think that the “quality assurance” (ie – map and counter errata) with MMP is somewhat better than GMT, and significantly better than some other large publishers that I wont mention (and I am happy to pay a premium for this) although does this also contribute to their higher costs? Maybe MMP could be more transparent to help all of us understand their cost structure, publishing priorities, etc…would love to see something equivilent to GMT’s monthly newsletter, or Compass’ town halls. (although the recent OCS update from Curtis was excellent!!) And then there is the ridiculous cost of out-of-print MMP titles. Now almost $1000 for Case Blue on Noble Knight….are you kidding me??? If MMP were to create “Case Blue 2” with only a few cosmetic changes, I am sure that 90% of current CB owners would snap it up + it would give many newcomers to OCS a chance to pick it up. Wny not put it on pre-order and see what happens? Get 500 orders, publish, and print! And if not enough interest generated to hit 500, then nothing lost. I get that it is expensive to keep stuff in print, but exactly as you say Kev, these homegrown publishers like TRL are really putting out quality stuff with small print runs. And yeah, I will probably throw down for Deadly Northern Lights 2 just to get the component upgrades, even though I have the first one sitting on my shelf, still unplayed.
A longer rant than I intended, but there you go!
Cheers.
good feedback. Now is the time to sell DNL for a modest premium!
good feedback. Now is the time to sell DNL for a modest premium! Oh and if you want in on DNL v2. You better be on the list. I understand the print run is going to be EXACT and small.
👍👍
I confirm that all TRLGames products are printed in Europe. The dice too are made in Germany 🙂
lets talk about the excess #19 and 20!!! LOL
I’ve expressly requested loaded dice 😛
:). Love it!
Might as well “throw in on this” … My brother (my gaming partner) and I have had this conversations many times. My thoughts are you go back to the basic premise that the majority of the producers (publishers) have turned a hobby into a business; albeit a “hobby as a business”, not “I have produced a product the market wants and I shall build a thriving business from it”. My theory is that they are enjoying themselves and their motivations on the business side are NOT classically driven, but instead they will only do what they want, when they want, and how they want to as long as their hobby needs are met. Personally I will/would pay a premium to source “USA” just to screw the CCP, but not to the tune of 50+%. I think the “hobby” theory explains more than production costs also (e.g. development time to market). Thanks for the chance to be part of the discussion.
Honestly, I rarely buy any MMP products anymore, their pricing model reminds me a lot about what Tesla is doing with their monthly price increases. Last time I brought Hakkaa Päälle! for ASL it cost an obscene $130 just for one map board, Nationality rules and some scenarios. For that price I could have brought Beyond Valor which contains some 20 mapboards, core counterset and and tons of scenarios. There was really no point in my to boycott their pricing on the ASL blog sites; way too may fanboys with more money than brains. Of course I brought it, it was the last core module for the series, it is my final kiss off to the system.
Thanks for raising this issue, Kev. Apparently, there’s a bit of a myth about printing games outside of the United States, specifically that’s it’s done because it’s cheaper. In recent months, some boardgames manufacturers have noted that price has little to do with having their games produced in China; that the major reason is that quality is far higher than it would be in the United States. That’s in large measure because of the lack of facilities, dearth of qualified labor, and the absence of interest on the part of companies to commit themselves to invest in physical plant in the US. Some companies have noted that prices in China have in fact gone up considerably–something that was happening before the pandemic, and which it has of course been reinforced with logistics problems. So the premise that printing might be more expensive if it was moved out of China and back to the US is akin to the claims made by some that “manufacturing will return” to the States if people are willing to pay more: some of it might, but the overwhelming amount left long ago and won’t ever return because the world and the world economy has moved on.
Incidentally, Chinese plant owners and manufacturers complain quite a bit about their own narrow profit margins and that so much production has fled to Vietnam, India, and other locations. They are also quick to note that some US companies say that their manufacturing is in the States when only their offices are; also that brokers and other middlemen take orders and then have components printed in–wait for it–China, while not always notifying the source firm.
Apologies for this long comment. I’m as bewildered by MMP’s pricing as I am by their lack of response to queries about orders and stock. I think their products are excellent, and the war game industry would be a far poorer place without them. At the same time, I do wonder if the pricing of ‘Bastogne’ (and the reluctance to reprint ‘Case Blue’ for example) indicate larger matters of management and attention to their customers. Thanks for allowing me to post, and as ever, for all your fine efforts.
Excellent points. Quality is indeed a major factor. One of the reasons why I know of at least one publisher who has given up on US printers and another who has moved more of its US based printing to China. Despite 50%+ increases in shipping costs.
The thing is, if you are patient and wait, many MMP titles will go on sale for 40-70% off during their Pre-Christmas/Fall Black Friday sale. Their OCS Korea and BCS Brazen Chariots were selling for $30-40. That doesn’t work for the ASL titles, and if you want them, you need to get them before they sell out. Especially any of the Historical games. Festung Budapest can hardly be found for under $300 now. But I suspect Bastogne will be up for sale in a year or so on Black Friday.
agreed
Excellent points by RLM but I am not convinced with the dearth of qualified labor. Yes it makes sense there are a dearth of people looking for jobs (half as many as open jobs in general). Facilities and interest, absolutely I can buy into this. Employment skills in the printing industry, other than the graphic design that may be outsourced to the printer, is mostly developed via OJT.
But to my earlier point this is a hobby business environment and frankly they don’t care about our (users) gripes with cost as long as their minimum profit needs are met. I just don’t believe they are as motivated by their bottom line as much as we feel they should be.
Waiting for discounts, avoiding a purchase, or simply taking our business elsewhere to drive them below their minimum profit needs is, in my opinion, the only way to get their attention.